Transcript: 50th Extra-Ordinary Council Meeting

Assembly and seating of councillors

00:06:19Can we ensure that we walk in so that we can get done with the business of the day?

00:14:02Can we start getting to be seated? If your neighbor that was not here, or your neighbor that was here is not here, get your neighbor so we can start with the item.

00:14:24Councillor Deppe, are you still talking in riddles? No, she was talking in riddles to me on the phone, so I'm trying to understand if she's still riddled. No, it's fine. It's fine.

00:14:45I've got allergics for her if she's still in riddles. Huh-uh, she knows, that's me and her. You don't come in anywhere. Huh-uh, I'm not including you. It's me and her. Look how she's laughing. Colleagues, can we start? Are we done?

00:15:08Okay, let's start with the meeting. STC? Can I be seated first?

Notice of meeting and opening acknowledgments

00:15:23Councillors, it is hereby notified that the 15th extraordinary council meeting of the City of Johannesburg Municipality will be held on Thursday, the 29th of May, 2026 at 2:55 at Constance Connie Bapela Council Chamber in Braamfontein. And the first item is opening and acknowledgment by the Speaker of Council.

00:15:46Thank you so much, STC. I want to acknowledge once again the Executive Mayor, Councillor Sello Dada Morero, Deputy Executive Mayor, Councillor Loyiso Masuku, the Whip of Council, Councillor Kazamula Chauke, Chair of Chairs, Councillor Vavhoni Marema, all political party leaders and whips, members of the Mayoral Committee, chairpersons of Section 79 Committee and those that are making a noise at the back. Can we be seated?

00:16:23Fellow councillors, the City Manager, Dr. Floyd Brink, Secretary to Council, Mr. Andile Gobinca, officials of the City of Johannesburg, most importantly, the residents of the City of Johannesburg, members of the media present, ladies and gentlemen, I welcome you all to the 15th extraordinary council meeting of the city.

Break to verify quorum

00:16:49But we need to do what we normally do. We need to, at this moment, take a break of about 10 minutes so that we can count councillors in the chamber and the verification of the number of councillors who have signed the second register for the day so as to confirm the quorum.

00:17:14This is a new meeting. So can all councillors be seated so that we can count you, unless you have signed the register. Legal, can we start counting? And it's a new register, right? If you know you signed the register, be seated so that we can just count you.

00:17:42Maybe we count

00:18:00Colleagues, earlier on, Legal counted. When they counted the register outside, so there's 186. Yeah, there's 186, but they will sign, and then we'll hear what's the amount outside. But they're also counting us.

00:23:09Colleagues, the up and down is confusing Legal. Can we be seated?

00:24:13Guys, can

00:27:05both sides, we are ready to go. Thank you, colleagues. STC?

Applications for leave of absence

00:27:09We proceed now with applications for leave of absence.

00:27:13Colleagues, do we have any leave of absence for this meeting? Councillor Simonse?

00:27:23Good afternoon, Madam Speaker, and to the house. We have Councillor Kaldine who's off ill and Councillor Deppe is on study leave. Thank you.

00:27:31Thank you so much. Councillor Makhuba?

00:27:39Thank you

00:27:41Colleagues! Councillor Makhuba?

00:27:48For the IFP it's Councillor Nyembe, ill health. Thank you.

00:27:53Thank you so much. Councillor Masera?

00:27:58Thank you, Speaker. I have got the following councillors, Councillor Nomzamo Mohamed, party business, Councillor Sheik Chabalala, ill health, Councillor René Benjamin, private business, Councillor Tim Truluck, private business, Councillor Florence Roberts, ill health, Councillor Solomon Maila, ill health, Councillor Emi Koekemoer, private business, Councillor Papo Mmakatisa, ill health, Councillor B. Campbell-Cloete, ill health, Councillor Ralf Bittkau, ill health, Councillor Gert Niemand, private business,

00:28:36and Councillor Zander Hoén, party business, and I also have Councillor Daniel Schay and Joanne Horwitz leaving at 16:00 for religious reasons. Thank you.claim

00:28:55Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Ndlela? You are next, Councillor Mkhonza.

00:29:03Thank you, Madam Speaker. MMC Nomoya Mnisi, family bereavement, Councillor Mgaga, ill health, Councillor Nguse, out of the province. Thank you.

00:29:14Thank you so much. Councillor Mkhonza?

00:29:18Yeah, thank you very much, Madam Speaker. So, Councillor Harris, party business, and Councillor Rohlssen, ill health. Thank you very much.

00:29:28Thank you so much. I think the, Can you press your mic, please, Councillor? Councillor De Lange?

00:29:42Um, thank you, Madam Speaker, just a LOA for Councillor Paul Smit for Shavuot observance at 4:00. Thank you.claim

00:29:52Thank you so much. Councillor MMC Zungu?

00:30:00Please.

00:30:03Councillor from EFF next to, press your mic so I can see. Councillor Mkasi, thank you.

00:30:15Alright, thank you very much Speaker. From the EFF is MMC for Public Safety Councillor Koma, the party leader Councillor Nkokou and Councillor Mogapi on a party business and then Councillor Ntoele and Councillor Ngwenya ill health, thank you very much.

00:30:37Thank you so much Councillor. We also still have written apologies. Councillor Mpolobosho private business, Councillor F. Abdool private business and Councillor R. Harris as reported by Councillor Mkhonza, political party business. Thank you to all those. Are these all, are they noted?

00:31:10Thank you so much. STC.

Item 1 tabled: KfW loan agreement

00:31:18We move to recommendations to council.

00:31:21Executive Mayor.

00:31:26Thank you Speaker, I hereby stand to table recommendations for council consideration, thank you.

00:31:38Thank you so much Executive Mayor. Can we go to our speakers list, ACDP Councillor F. Mkhonza.

00:31:53Just hold on Councillor Mkhonza.

00:32:02Councillor Mkhonza, can you take your seat, we haven't tabled the item, apologies. STC.

00:32:10Item number one is the request for approval and authorization to enter into a loan agreement with KfW in the 2025/2026 to 2027/28 financial years.

ACDP debate on Item 1

00:32:23Thank you so much. Councillor Mkhonza. Mkhonza.

00:32:29Yeah, thank you very much Madam Speaker. Allow me to start with my guiding manual, the Holy Bible on this item. From the book of Luke chapter 12 verse 48, but our focus will be on the B part.

00:32:51The B part says, "And to whom much has been committed of him..."

00:32:59Councillor Mkhonza, can you just, we'll keep your time. Councillor Kyle and there's another person, I can't see the person on this side. Ah, the two of you Councillor Kyle. And then there's someone here behind Councillor, is it Brand? There's someone there at the back and I think that person is on the phone.

00:33:28Can you check for me who the person is please? Protocol.claim

00:33:37Councillor Mkhonza, can you carry on? Protocol will check.

00:33:41Yeah, thank you very much Madam Speaker. I was just reading the B part of this scripture that says, "And to whom much has been committed of him they will ask more." Madam Speaker, the City of Joburg is the economic hub of Africa. So when we deal with such items we need to be extra carefulclaim

00:34:08of what we do and deal with the basics correctly. Madam Speaker, the ACDP caucus is disturbed by the level of failure from the Group Finance to do due diligence and attention to detail on this very critical and necessary good debt. According to us, this is good debt. However, we have realized that

00:34:36when we read the annexures, Annexure C, the letter to province is not signed. That's number one. And the comments are silent on what is the province and the National Treasury are sayingclaim

00:35:06on this loan. Now, the other observation that we cannot ignore as a caucus is that the 23rd of April was the due date for both province and national to respond. However, on the 23rd the National Minister of Finance

00:35:35writes a letter to the EM, which is not related to this we accept, to this loan. But whatever is written in there cannot be ignored. As much as we want to approve this, in principle we approve this as ACDP, based on what I have highlighted Madam Speaker, as the ACDP we will abstain. I thank you very much.

IFP and AIC positions on Item 1

00:36:01Thank you so much. Councillor Mkhize from the Inkatha Freedom Party.

00:36:15Thank you very much Speaker.

00:36:20isiZuluAngibingelele uMeya we City of Johannesburg olindile uMMC Mabaso. USpeaker ku council meeting yangomhlaka 29 May 2025 savumelana nge multi funding plan eyayizosiza uku raiser i 3.5 billion and 2.7 billion.claim

00:36:47isiZuluNgaleyondlela akusithusi ukubona le report ibuya futhi namhlanje.

00:36:53So Speaker, as IFP caucus we note the report. I thank you.

00:36:59Thank you Councillor Mkhize. AIC Councillor T. Mhlongo.

00:37:06Thank you very much Madam Speaker. AIC is rising to note the report and approve it. Thank you so much.

PA position on Item 1

00:37:15Thank you Councillor Mhlongo. Councillor Ponsonby, I don't see him. So can we have Councillor Steenkamp represent the PA?

00:37:25He's here Madam Speaker.

00:37:28Ponsonby.

00:37:31Oh, I don't see him on his seat, that's why.

00:37:33Thank you Speaker, thank you Chief Whip. Thank you Speaker. Greetings to you Speaker, greetings to the EM, greetings to MMC Kunene and Joburg caucus and all councillors in the house. Speaker, we are disciplined GLU members as the PA. And Madam Speaker, I'm standing here today as a disciplined member

00:38:03of the GLU. We act on issues and vote for them for the betterment of our residents, for development and service delivery issues due to them. I have to ask, how disciplined can one be when your wards and regions are not included in budgets and simple service delivery issues cannot be delivered or addressed? We as ward councillors get humiliated by residents daily, yet we come to this house raising our hands and vote on loans and adjustment budgetsclaim

00:38:33to better their living conditions, yet the allocations of those loans and budgets does not fully reach the people. Approved projects such as Kliptown UDF project, there's no talk about it after it being approved in this council. That just shows that we as politicians are content, sorry, with the conditions our people have to live in on a daily. Budget was approved for Kliptown multi-purpose center, the boundary road upgrade, yet not a stone has been turned.

00:39:03Bulk sewer pipes impacts the livelihood of residents everyday in Silver Street and Extension 8 Eldos, yet we run out of budget to correct these before the term has ever drawn to a close. How disciplined can one be if your people receive threatening calls from external debt collectors contracted by the city for outstanding municipal accounts on a daily basis? The elderly being declined when applying for ESP only

00:39:33because they have an account at a furniture store, and this they used to buy a bed or a stove or a fridge based on them being pensioners. Who builds these criterias?

00:39:4730 seconds Councillor.

00:39:48Thank you. Who builds these criterias? Don't they have pensioners in their family? Do we realize that we are spending more money on outsourcing debt collecting, call centers and people servicing notices to residents physically? Speaker, I want to say today that the PA stands for this note and we note this report, we note this item, we note the council agenda today, but we are saying this council should implement the debt write-off. Thank you very much.

00:40:21Thank you Councillor Ponsonby. Can I have Chair Magwentshu, apologies that I skipped.

ATM supports Item 1

00:40:28Thank you Speaker. As the ATM, we rise to support the item, thank you.

ANC position on Item 1 (Cllr Radebe)

00:40:35Thank you Councillor Magwentshu. ANC Councillor T. Radebe.

00:40:44Thank you Madam Speaker. Greetings to the Executive Mayor, the Deputy Executive Mayor, the Mayoral Committee, Chairpersons of Section 79, Chair of Chairs, the Chief Whip, fellow councillors and the residents of Johannesburg. Madam Speaker, I rise on item one which is the loan agreement between the City of Johannesburg, City Power and the German Development Bank which is the KfW.

00:41:15Madam Speaker, maybe we need to first say that as the African National Congress, we are in agreement of this loan agreement between the parties that are mentioned. We believe that this loan is important and it's necessary. When the notice was brought into council, I think almost every councillor that spoke on that day including Councillor Santana, one of the remarks was that this is a loan with favorable conditions.

00:41:46The loan is for just energy transition, it's promoting renewable energy, is to make sure that we've got electricity infrastructure that is good and it's secured. The loan will make sure that in future we've got electricity infrastructure that is in a good shape, that is able to generate electricity and generate income for the City of Johannesburg. I think we've noticed the devastation we went through during load shedding.

00:42:17And we noticed that if we don't have good infrastructure, we suffer in terms of the economy. The City of Johannesburg lost billions because we could not mitigate the problems that we were facing during load shedding. Now we've got an opportunity to approve a loan that will cushion us and absorb the pressure and the risk for the future. And this loan seeks to do just that. But this loan also further gives us an opportunity

00:42:48to build financial relationships with development banks, particularly in Europe and in other places. In our funding plan we did indicate that we will be working closely with funding development banks. But also Madam Speaker, if you look into the future prospects of our capital expenditure, you notice that even in the budget that is coming up, bulk of it,

00:43:19particularly the capital budget, bulk of it will be funded through loans. So this is the beginning of a new norm which might not last for long. But we are also confident that this loan will do well because we've got the German government administering or being part of monitoring this loan. We know they are quite good. We've seen how they follow up on financial related issues. They are the ones that

00:43:50rang the bell on Steinhoff. So we are quite confident that if we are transparent and we do things correctly, then this loan will be fine. So Madam Speaker, any councillor in this house that believes in the future of Johannesburg, that believes in the infrastructure of the City of Johannesburg will definitely make sure that we approve this loan. It is not only for us, but it's for future generations. The mayor yesterday clearly indicated that we are starting to lay the foundation

00:44:21that will make sure that future generations of the City of Johannesburg are able to develop and grow. So this loan is part of the example of what we seek to achieve. Madam Speaker, as the African National Congress, we note and we approve the loan, and we seek that all councillors in this house approve the loan. Thank you Madam Speaker.

ActionSA rejects the loan

00:44:43Thank you so much. Councillor S. Nkonyeni from ActionSA.

00:44:55Greetings Speaker. All protocol observed. Speaker, Councillor Radebe says that the bulk of the capital budget in the next financial year is going to be dependent on loans. He says it is the beginning of a new norm. But this is a new norm that we must not accept. Madam Speaker, a loan is a loan, whether we call it ring-fenced or not, it is just money that will go into the city's coffers and disappear because there is no accountability in the city. In fact, we should be

00:45:25getting reports on monies we have borrowed, how many loans we currently have, total amount repaid, total amount owing, total interest payable. As the incoming government of the city, we need that information. Reports come late, Auditor General gets given the runaround while the city plays Black Mampatile with financial statements. Madam Speaker, driving in the city has become an extreme sport. We are dodging potholes and sinkholes on a daily basis like on Bruce Street in Ward 62 where I live.claim

00:45:56Bruce Street in Ward 62 is waterlogged because of a leak that comes from a hijacked building. Johannesburg Water doesn't want to close the leak so that JRA can come and fix the road. We get told that JRA has no budget for reconstruction, but ANC increased employee related costs and gaslit workers by using a PFA that is financially impossible to implement. Today we are told that this council must approve another loan. The City of Johannesburg wants to borrow approximately 3.8 billionclaim

00:46:26through the KfW loan facility over a 15-year period. The city tells us that this loan is intended to support City Power infrastructure projects and electricity infrastructure investment. But residents are asking a very simple question: if previous budgets, loans and tariff increases were truly fixing infrastructure, why do some areas experience prolonged power outages? Why are businesses still closing and threatening to leave the CBD? Councillor Mongameli would be ableclaim

00:46:56to attest to this because he was crying to me a couple of weeks ago after they had a power outage that lasted for about two weeks while City Power was dragging their feet. Why are traffic lights still failing? Why are communities still experiencing collapsing service delivery? The city is still under financial pressure. Speaker, the adjustment budget already reduced the city's capital budget by approximately 276 million because the city failed to meetclaim

00:47:26its revenue collection targets. At the same time, residents are expected to pay electricity tariff increases of over 12%. The people of Johannesburg are paying more and receiving less: more blackouts, more potholes, more water outages, more unemployment, more hopelessness. And who suffers the most? Young people who have lost...

00:47:45Just hold on Councillor. Chair Mongameli.

00:47:50No, thanks Speaker. Speaker, the honorable councillor must not be very economical with the truth. I have never spoken to him. He must just address whatever that he wanted to say, but he must not be very economical with the truth. I don't want to say

00:48:07Sesothoo bua maaka ka Sesotho.

00:48:08Thanks very much Speaker.

00:48:10Thank you so much. Councillor, can you continue with your speech economically.

00:48:17Thank you Speaker, I've got the WhatsApp chats and call records. Speaker, I hope you saved my time. Young people have lost faith in government because they have only known corruption, collapsing infrastructure and political disappointment. To the youth of Johannesburg listening today, the future of this city is in your hands. If you do not participate in democracy, others will continue making decisions on your behalf. Your silence has consequences,

00:48:47your vote matters. So on the 20th and 21st of June, come out in numbers and register to vote for ActionSA. Speaker, Johannesburg does not need more debt without accountability. Johannesburg needs leadership. ActionSA believes in fixing Johannesburg through clean governance, consequence management, infrastructure investment and responsible financial management. Not endless borrowing to cover governance failures, not increasing tariffs while residents suffer, not burdening future generations with debt created

00:49:16by poor governance today. For these reasons, ActionSA rejects this proposed loan facility. Thank you.

DA position on Item 1

00:49:23Thank you so much Councillor. Councillor Santana from the DA.

00:49:40Madam Speaker, I rise to speak on Item 1, the request for approval and authorization to enter into a loan agreement with KfW for the 2025/2026 through to the 2027/2028 financial year. Once again, council is being asked to consider a major financial item at very short notice. It is regrettable that councillors were only informed late yesterday evening at approximately quarter past nine of yet another extraordinary meeting to approve yet another loan.claim

00:50:11This raises serious concerns. Is the Mayor and the Mayoral Committee unable to provide council with the required Section 71 MFMA monthly financial reports and quarterly reports in time? Section 71 of the Municipal Finance Management Act requires the accounting officer to submit in the prescribed format a statement of the state of the municipality's budget for that month and the year to date to the mayor and the provincial treasury no later than 10 working days after the month end.claim

00:50:41Section 52(d) of the same Act further requires the mayor within 30 days of the end of each quarter to submit a report to council on the implementation of the budget and the financial state of affairs of the municipality. Timely reporting is a basic requirement of good governance, financial prudence, openness and trust. Yet today we are being asked to approve a multi-year loan of approximately 3.8 billion without tangible information required to make a properly informed decision.claim

00:51:13Madam Speaker, the only information available to us is the written correspondence from the Minister of Finance and Eskom, both highlighting the city's financial distress and its difficulty in meeting its obligations. The other aspect of the loan that we have is the loan amount and the key terms: the total loan, 200 million Euros, approximately 3.8 billion; the tenure, 15 years; fixed interest rates up to 9%; amortized with quarterly repayments; disbursements,claim

00:51:43annual drawdowns aligned to City Power's approved capital expenditure; expected drawdowns for the 25/26 is 732 million, with the remaining balance to draw down in subsequent years; no interest required; and a front-end fee of 0.5% which approximates to 19 million. The other information which is a little bit controversial under the financialclaim

00:52:11issues that impact the city, it indicates the total cost of the loan of the 15 years for this 732.7 million will equate to 1.35 billion over the 15-year period. And here is where there is a contradiction: it says indicated in semi-annual repayments. So, is it quarterly or is it semi-annually? Madam Speaker, in principle we are not opposing the loan. However, we cannot support the borrowing of additional fundsclaim

00:52:42until the council is reasonably informed of the City of Johannesburg's current financial position and more importantly that of City Power. The letter to the Provincial Treasury under Annexure G is not signed. More importantly, there are no responses or comments from both National Treasury or Provincial Treasury attached. The key question is whether City Power as a company could obtain this loan in its own right. The answer unfortunately is no.claim

00:53:14On any realistic assessment, City Power is in severe financial distress. City Power operating and bulk purchase costs exceeds its revenue collections, and is being subsidized by other revenue generating entities and by property rates. The necessary trading reforms and turnaround strategies are being implemented too slowly. Madam Speaker, a municipality cannot borrow its way out of financial distress. Doing so simply increases debt servicing obligations and interest costs,claim

00:53:44ultimately placing further pressure on service delivery. A profit and loss statement can through accounting treatment present a more favorable picture. It's an accounting outcome that can only give you part of the story. Cash flow, however, is business reality and it tells the truth. Until the city and City Power in particular can demonstrate a credible financial position grounded in real business outcomes, we as the Democratic Alliance cannot support this multi-yearclaim

00:54:14loan from the KfW. On the 4th of November 2026, residents can vote for a government that restores accountability, fixes infrastructures and gets Joburg working. And on a personal note, I just want to reach out to my son and wish him a happy 18th birthday. Thank you. I thank you.claim

EFF position on Item 1

00:54:35Councillor Zitha, EFF.

00:54:44Thank you very much Speaker. Greetings to you, greetings to the Executive Mayor of the City of Johannesburg, Silo Dada Morero, MPAC Chairperson Councillor Raseruthe, MMC of Health and Social Development Councillor Ennie Makhafola, and our party leader today Councillor Mosehla. Greetings to you Councillor.

00:55:12And happy birthday to your son Councillor Santana. Madam Speaker, the EFF rises today to speak with honesty because the residents of Johannesburg deserve the truth about the financial direction of the city. We are not opposed to investment in City Power. We understand very well that our people need reliable electricity, safer infrastructure, functioning substations, working transformers and a city that can keep the lights on. What we reject is the attempt to present long-term borrowingclaim

00:55:44as if it is evidence of financial strength. The document before council confirms that the city seeks to enter into KfW loan facility of approximately 3.8 billion over 15 years for the City Power electrical infrastructure. The loan carries a fixed interest rate of up to 9%, and the city must also pay an upfront fee of about 19 million. Those are the serious commitmentsclaim

00:56:14that will bind the city and its residents for many years. Madam Speaker, the issue is not whether the City Power requires investment; it does. The real issue is that the city is increasingly relying on the loans to fund critical infrastructure while the Executive Mayor continues to speak as if Johannesburg is financially stable and everything is under control, and it's not like that at all. That is a contradiction that the EFF is exposing today.

00:56:45A city that keeps turning into borrowing cannot pretend that its finances are healthy without explaining the long-term cost to residents. Every loan has consequences, Speaker. It must be repaid with interest from future budgets. That means future money debt repayment. Even with development loans, residents must be told the truth. Borrowing today reduces fiscal space tomorrow. It places pressure on tariffs, rates and service delivery

00:57:16priorities in the years ahead. The EFF's position is simple: public money must serve the people, especially the working class and the poor communities who suffer the most when infrastructure collapses. Debt must never become a substitute for clean governance, Speaker, proper revenue collection, anti-corruption measures, maintenance planning and direct investment in communities. Johannesburg cannot borrow its way out

00:57:47of crisis caused by poor management. As we move toward local government election in November, the 4th of November to be exact, residents must ask themselves who's being honest with them. The mayor can speak about recovery and stability, but the document shows the city depending more and more on debt to fund basic infrastructure. The people of Johannesburg deserve leaders who tell them the truth, not leaders who campaign with confidence while quietly committing residents

00:58:18to a long...

00:58:1935 seconds.

00:58:20...term repayment. The EFF supports real infrastructure development, we support a strong City Power, we support investment that improves the lives of residents, but we reject the politics of pretending that debt is development or that borrowing is the same as financial stability. Johannesburg needs a government that builds revenue, stops corruption, cuts waste, protects public resources and delivers...

UDM position on Item 1

00:58:54Thank you Councillor. Councillor Zigebe from the UDM.

00:59:04Speaker, the United Democratic Movement supports investment into infrastructure because the reality is undeniable. Johannesburg cannot grow, industrialize, attract investment or restore dignity to residents while our electricity infrastructure continues to deteriorate. We therefore understand the necessity of this proposed 3.8 billion loan facility for City Power infrastructure upgrades. We understand that infrastructure financing is sometimes unavoidable, especially when years of underinvestment, maintenance backlogs,claim

00:59:35illegal connections, cable theft, aging substations and operational inefficiencies have pushed the system to the brink. But support for borrowing cannot become support for recklessness, because the question before this council is not only whether the city requires infrastructure funding; the real question is whether the entity entrusted with these resources is capable of financial discipline, operational efficiency and...

01:00:00revenue protection. We cannot continue borrowing billions while billions continue leaking through non-technical losses, poor billing systems, electricity theft, weak revenue collection and operational inefficiencies. We cannot continue going ko matshonisa every financial year while the bleeding continues internally. The residents of Johannesburg are already carrying enormous pressure, businesses are struggling, households are struggling, yet compliant residents are expected to sub- to subsidize inefficiency,

01:00:30illegal consumption and poor financial management. This cannot become the permanent model of governance. Speaker, if this Council approves this uh this facility, then it must equally demand accountability conditions. Firstly, City Power must aggressively strengthen revenue collection mechanisms, a municipality cannot survive where consumption increases while collection weakens. The the entity must intensify the fight against electricity theft and illegal connections which continue to collapse infrastructure and erode revenue.

01:00:57There must be a measurable operational reforms. Residents cannot continue experiencing outages, delayed responses, collapsing infrastructure and poor communication while debt obligations continue rising. And lastly, borrowing must produce visible outcomes. Residents must see substations upgraded, outages reduced, turnaround times improved and infrastructure stabilized because debt without reform is not dev- development, it is merely postponing collapse.

01:01:25Speaker, the UDM therefore supports infrastructure investment in principle because the city cannot stand still. Our support is not a blank cheque, financial sustain- sustainability must go hand-in-hand with consequence management, operational reform, strengthen revenue collection and responsible governance. Johannesburg cannot borrow its way out of of of structural failure, it must govern its way out it it's way out of it. We support this, thank you.

ANC position on Item 1 (Cllr Modupi)

01:01:51Thank you Councillor Zigebe. Um ANC, Councillor D Modupi.

01:02:02Thank you, Madam Speaker. Uh Madam Speaker let me first greet you and say the protocol is observed.

01:02:13Madam Speaker, I don't want to mess up the things I think Councillor Radebe has represented us very well as the African National Congress.claim

01:02:21The position uh regarding this matter which he has advanced truly reflect our our position. However, Madam Speaker, allow me to equally wish the first born eh yasekhaya abutwakaclaim

01:02:38Sesothoke Lebohang Legwabaclaim

01:02:40he is the first born.claim

01:02:41Uh he is born today. And also allow me to wish the last born the last bornclaim

01:02:47Sesothoya lapeng

01:02:49Phumlani Modupi.claim

01:02:50He is also born today and Madam Speaker I want to say with the African National Congress I want to tell the world out there

01:03:00the last born yasekhaya, Phumlani Modupi

01:03:06we were left by our parents in 2005 when he was 8 years old.

01:03:12Since from then he has been in school supported by the government in public school.emotive

01:03:19Later on he went to the University, supported by NSFAS, he graduated and uh this year he graduated uh with his second uh Honours Degree.

01:03:35Uhemotive

01:03:38I I want to say he got motivated because in his first year in the University of North West he was funded by the very same government and where I'm coming from in the little town of North West, Matlosanaemotive

01:03:56we grew up in the RDP house it was built by this government.

01:04:01So I'm saying we are the product of the benefits provided by the government that is led by the African National Congress.

01:04:10So we are saying when we say we want this uh loan to be approved, it's going to stabilize the electricity infrastructure

01:04:21the climate related and energy renewal electric I mean infrastructure, that is what it says and it's going to be ring-fenced. Councillor Radebe stated that it is going to be closely monitored.

01:04:38It comes with a technical expertise so it's going to make lives of many other young people in South Africa to be a better life. Uh I'm saying on the 4th of November this year,

01:04:50I have told the story of success trickling from the policies of the government that is led by the African National Congress. So residents of the City of Johannesburg don't make any mistakes

01:05:04Sesothole seke la kgahlwa ke none e feta e hlotsa.

01:05:08SesothoBa tla fihla ba tshwere ditshepiso gobane ba shebile go ba le iphepa. Ba bangata ba tswa mokgatlong ona wa African National Congress.

01:05:16SesothoBa fumane gore ga ba sa kgona go iphepa gobane Ntate Ramaphosa o di kwetse dipompo, ba fihla ba lo theha mekgatlo ya bona. Ga ba qeta go theha mekgatlo ya bona ba se ba batla gore jwale tsena ba ne ba re ga re formeng coalition le re fe ditulo tsane le tsane.

01:05:34The residents of Johannesburg vote ANC and avoid coalitions. I want to say as the ANC we move for the approval of this loan. Thank you very much.

01:05:44Thank you Councillor.

Deputy Mayor/MMC Finance responds on Item 1

01:05:45Talking about Magwentshu.

01:05:50Deputy Mayor, MMC Masuku.

01:05:58Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Want to acknowledge yourself, the Executive Mayor of the City of Joburg, um Whip of Council, um Councillor Chauke, the Chair of Chairs and fellow members of the Mayoral Committee, and um all our caucuses. Madam Speaker, just want to say that on the comments um raised by councillors appreciating everything that came both from Councillor Mhlongo, Couns- Councillor Ponsonby

01:06:29um as well as Councillor Mkhize and Councillor Radebe. And I think what we have to accept is that this uh loan is about indeed the future of uh investing in our infrastructure um and also as well put by Councillor Boer that this is a a concessional loan that actually is going to benefit the residents of Joburg. So Madam Speaker, um the caucus of the the speakers of the Democratic Alliance as well as the ActionSA

01:07:00are therefore opposing service delivery. They are opposing investment into infrastructure, they are voting against reliable infrastructure, they are voting against your lights for as residents of Johannesburg to be on, they are voting against all of this just because they don't believe that they must support, as the Executive Mayor said, they must support anything that is led by

01:07:30anyone else who is not them and that is the problem where we use politics to compromise service delivery. Of course we have never we have never hidden the financial situation of the City of Johannesburg, that is why we present Section 71 reports to Council and to the Section 79. It's precisely because of the transparency and good governance of the ANC-led government of local unity, that is why

01:07:59we appreciate that councillors understand that this loan is affordable, it's compliant and strategic, and in fact the German bank is actually giving a thumbs up to the City of Johannesburg led by the Executive Mayor of the ANC-led government of local unity, to show that they are putting their weight behind because they believe in Johannesburg. People who believe in Joburg are the ones who are supporting the loan, those who do not believe in Johannesburg

01:08:31are not supporting the loan.

01:08:38In conclusion, Madam Speaker, we did indicate in our funding plan and in fact we've always never we've never hidden the fact that loans are part and parcel of how the institution has to fund, even the IDP says that and the the Municipal Finance Act says that we bring the funding plan to Council so that we indicate what it is that is our intention. And for us this is not about us, the Mayor put it clearly

01:09:08Uh uh uh MMC

01:09:11Councillor Belinda, I don't expect that from you.

01:09:14You must leave the chamber.

01:09:16I honestly don't expect that from you

01:09:19She's even owing

01:09:20being a leader in your party. I don't.

01:09:25I honestly don't be- don't believe.

01:09:29Thank you MMC, can you carry on?

01:09:33In co- in conclusion In conclusion, Madam Madam Speaker, this loan indeed is about cushioning risks about the future. The Executive Mayor said

01:09:46for those who are listening,

01:09:48on the 4th of November all of us will cease to be councillors, all of us with no exception. So the ANC- led government of local unity irregardless of whatever will be happening or what will be the outcome, which of course will favor the ANC. The Mayor said

01:10:11the Mayor said we must invest in the future, the foundation we are building is not for us. The foundation we are building, Councillor Cook, Madam Speaker, when you were referring to the Mayor and his family and his children, it's precisely because that speech he made yesterday was speaking about laying the foundation for the future generations of the city. It is not about us, we are the government of the day now as we're seated here,

01:10:42but we have to build a foundation for the generations to come. This loan is about that, this loan is about the future of Johannesburg. We are investing because we care about Johannesburg, we believe in Johannesburg as the ANC-led government of local unity and Speaker, we say please support this loan, it's a progressive loan, the rates are good, and we've got a thumbs up from the German government. We ask Council to approve the loan, I thank you.

01:11:13Thank you, MMC.

Dispute over ANC request for a caucus break

01:11:22Councillors. Councillors. The recommendations.

01:11:30Councillor who?

01:11:35Councillor

01:11:38Councillor Ndlela.

01:11:41Uh thank you Madam Speaker, the ANC caucus is requesting a 10 minutes break.

01:11:50Unfortunately we've gone through the through the the um item and we can't have a break now. We've gone through the item, Councillor Ndlela.

01:12:07Councillors, recommendations are on pages

01:12:15MMC, did you raise your hand?

01:12:19No no, Madam Speaker, I was just saying it was allowed in the past

01:12:24um hence I was just saying um I was raising my hand. So it was allowed and it's important for us to allow it even now,

01:12:38Madam Speaker.

01:12:39Move on.

01:12:40Otherwise let's allow you to consult with your your legal there, but it was allowed. It happened before, it can even happen now.

01:12:48MMC thank you MMC, MMC thank you. Can you take your seat? And all the howlers, can we stop howling?

01:13:00Uh-uh, it's this side and we know who we are. [00:13:05] (no speech)

01:13:52MMC Mgcina. MMC, next to you, MMC Kenny, did you lift your hand?

01:14:07But let me let me address MMC Mgcina first. MMC Mgcina, we have always said and it's always what we do, that when the item is tabled, councillors do ask for a caucus and we've always allowed it. When it is tabled, when the SDC tables it,

01:14:36you will get councillors asking for a caucus. And please don't say no, cause it has been done. But when we get into the item and discussions, we never give a caucus. And when we end the discussions, we also don't give caucus. Before it is tabled they can ask and even after SDC has tabled,

01:15:06we do give a chance. But in be- when it's done, then we don't. I recall a a time when even the DA asked and we said no. I I I can recall that they said no, and if any other speaker did that, I never did that. Co- uh Councillor Kunene,

01:15:35did you want to say something? But I I I have said this in relation to what MMC Mgcina has said. Councillor Kenny.

01:15:50isiZuluAs long as sivumelana ukuthi 10 minutes uzophana ngayo, Madam Speaker, we are alright.

01:16:00AfrikaansWatter taal jy ook al gebruik dit kom na dieselfde toe.

01:16:07Whether you say Pall Mall or Pell Mell, it comes out to the same. Whether it's tomatoes or tomatoes, it's the same.

01:16:18So can we we are going to carry on.

Voting on Item 1

01:16:26Um colleagues, I'm going to carry on. I see there's still doubt about what I said, but what I said is I've asked for legal advice. Thank you, colleagues. Can I have those that abstain?

01:16:52Okay, let me ring the bell. Let me ring the bell. No, no, no, there might be someone that went out to have a pee-pee. Can we ring the bell? Colleagues, when earlier on I said keep the doors closed, this side was saying no. Uh-uh, don't point me. Councillor. Councillor, don't point me.

01:17:21Please don't point me. I take offense to it.

01:17:27You don't do that. Not you, next to Da Gama. The councillor with a blue cap, you never ever do that. You don't ever do that. Councillors, we're going to ring the bell and we're going to get everybody to come in. I've ruled and that's it. Can you ring the bell? [00:17:55] (no speech)

01:18:21Can we close the doors?

01:18:26Okay. Those who abstain, can I see your hands? [00:18:31] (no speech)

01:19:11You can drop your hands, councillors.

01:19:19Can you hand me a, Councillor Boer? Can we have those who say no? [00:19:26] (no speech)

01:20:35isiZuluNingakhaleli amanzi ne, fabulous.

01:20:43We are already carrying

01:20:44isiZuluNgeke siwakhalela amanzi

01:20:46we are used to that every Wednesday, so don't worry. [00:20:50] (no speech)

01:21:31You can lower your hands as well as close your mouth.

01:21:41Can you clo- can you lower your hands at the back, Action? Can we have the yeses, please? [00:21:51] (no speech)

01:22:45isiZuluNisaba ukudutshulwa, EFF. [00:22:51] (no speech)

01:25:21You can lower your hands so that we can do the counting. [00:25:26] (no speech)

Result: KfW loan item not carried

01:27:13Okay, colleagues. Those that abstained are five. Those that said no is 194. Ag, is 94.

01:27:35I'm still I'm still a bit angry for someone pointing me. It's 94. And those and those that said yes is 129. And um the item is not carried because Uh-uh. Uh-uh. Because we need 137. It's a finance item.

01:28:08136, apologies, so it's not carried.

01:28:14Um let me just read this for you. The following functions may not be delegated by a Municipal Council, the passing of by-laws

01:28:29Why are we making so much noise? We are not done as yet. Can councillors be seated?

01:28:37The approval of budgets, the imposition of rates and other taxes, levies and duties and the raising of loans. The following functions may not be delegated by Municipal Council. A majority of the members of a Municipal Council must be present before a vote may be taken on any matter.

Closing remarks and adjournment

01:30:00sitting in council, and we left here at 1:00, and at 3:00 in the morning we had a notice that came to us. Councillor, I'm not sure where you what what it is. Councillor Christians, and remain seated because it takes longer for you to stand. No, I'm not being insensitive.

01:30:25Can someone switch off the mics? Take the mic next to you. I'm sure you can reach it.

01:30:34isiZuluHhayi bo,

01:30:37IT?

01:30:48Councillor, maybe you can just speak loud.

01:30:56Yes, they've written to me now, a message asking for that. I'm being I I I wouldn't say things which I do not know or Councillors, I want to start off by saying before we leave the sitting it is disappointing to see that Section 79's are not quorating. And even your whips don't know that you have sent LOB,

01:31:28LOA's. So, it is wrong and we cannot have that. We need to have Section 79's quorating. I have asked your whips whether you have, they know about the letters, and your whips all said they don't know. So, can we attend. We have not been given, we have not been given a directive that we are, that we are disestablishing Council.

01:31:57We will wait until such time that it comes. But for now councillors need to be at Section 79's and all Council sittings that's called. I also want to remind councillors that the budget meeting will be on the 27th and the 28th. The related documents will be distributed in due course. And please Councillor Santana don't say you did not receive the memo because you received it on

01:32:27the 14th and not last night. Thank you to all councillors for your contribution, and guests, and the residents of Johannesburg for honouring us. The meeting is duly adjourned.